Unlocking High Potential with James Adams

Anthony Perl: 00:00:01

Unlocking high potential with James Adams.

2

: 00:00:05

Welcome to Dare to be More, the podcast

from MLC School in Burwood, Sydney.

3

: 00:00:09

Today, we're joined by James

Adams, the high potential

4

: 00:00:12

learning leader at MLC School.

5

: 00:00:14

Discover how the school identifies and

supports students with qualitatively

6

: 00:00:19

different learning needs across

academic, creative, and physical domains.

7

: 00:00:24

You'll hear about the flexibility

of the high potential term and how

8

: 00:00:27

MLC School ensures every student is

stretched to reach their full capability.

9

: 00:00:33

I'm your co-host, Anthony Pearl.

10

: 00:00:35

Let's get into today's conversation

Well, hello everyone, and welcome to

11

: 00:00:41

another episode of Dare to Be More.

12

: 00:00:43

And I've got James with me today.

13

: 00:00:45

We're gonna be talking about

high potential learning.

14

: 00:00:47

James, thank you so much

for being on the program.

15

: 00:00:50

James Adams: Thank you so much, Anthony.

16

: 00:00:51

It is wonderful to be here.

17

: 00:00:54

Anthony Perl: I guess we have to

kick things off by allowing you to

18

: 00:00:57

introduce yourself to everybody.

19

: 00:01:00

James Adams: Wonderful.

20

: 00:01:01

So I started at MLC School in August

of: 2025

21

: 00:01:07

potential learning leader in both the

junior school and the senior school.

22

: 00:01:11

Anthony Perl: This whole idea of

high potential learning, I suppose

23

: 00:01:15

is, does everyone has potential?

24

: 00:01:19

Can they reach the high potential?

25

: 00:01:21

And is high potential learning just

referring to a certain group of

26

: 00:01:24

people who are in an exceptional

category, or has everyone got that?

27

: 00:01:28

James Adams: So the term high potential,

as we use it in education, is a very

28

: 00:01:34

flexible and broad term, and it recognizes

that theoretically every student's

29

: 00:01:38

capable of high potential when given

enough practice and excellent teachers.

30

: 00:01:44

When we use it in pa- particularly my line

of work, it really does focus on students

31

: 00:01:49

who have qualitatively different learning

needs and really do need to be stretched.

32

: 00:01:54

But there is that recognition that

it is a somewhat flexible term,

33

: 00:01:58

whereby students can demonstrate

high potential perhaps later in their

34

: 00:02:02

learning career or even earlier.

35

: 00:02:04

Anthony Perl: I guess that's

the big thing, isn't it?

36

: 00:02:06

That everyone moves at their own pace, so

the definition of high potential for one

37

: 00:02:12

may be different- Mm … to the definition

of where it might land for someone else.

38

: 00:02:16

James Adams: Mm-hmm.

39

: 00:02:16

There's certainly different

domains of high potential.

40

: 00:02:19

For example, there's academic

high potential in particular

41

: 00:02:23

subjects, but there's also creative

expression and that creativity

42

: 00:02:27

in high potential in that space.

43

: 00:02:29

And even physical high potential, or in

terms of social-emotional understanding,

44

: 00:02:34

there's high potential there as well.

45

: 00:02:35

Anthony Perl: I guess that brings an

interesting point into this discussion,

46

: 00:02:39

is when you're talking about high

potential, is it really about recognizing

47

: 00:02:43

pa- certain areas where to focus in on?

48

: 00:02:46

Because someone who might be very

good in creative endeavors may

49

: 00:02:50

not be so good in the scientific

endeavors, for argument's sake.

50

: 00:02:53

Or someone may be better in, in,

you know, s- music, for example.

51

: 00:02:58

And so there's, there's different areas.

52

: 00:03:00

So is it about really focusing

on the one area, or does it

53

: 00:03:03

have to be across the board?

54

: 00:03:06

James Adams: The first thing I'd say is

it is in with- within at least one area.

55

: 00:03:09

So, you don't have to be an all-arounder

to be identified as high potential.

56

: 00:03:14

And the really important thing is we don't

want to get distracted with semantic games

57

: 00:03:19

whereby we use the term high potential and

try and really focus on what that means

58

: 00:03:24

in very specific terms, and compare it

to other terms such as gifted, which also

59

: 00:03:29

have other societal or cultural baggage.

60

: 00:03:32

And so, the phrase I always like to use is

a quote from Forrest Gump, which is, "High

61

: 00:03:37

potential is as high potential does."

62

: 00:03:39

And so, it's very easy and able to be

identified, but trying to define it in

63

: 00:03:45

a very precise way becomes challenging.

64

: 00:03:47

Anthony Perl: You'd probably throw another

Forrest Gump quote in there in trying to

65

: 00:03:50

identify them in the first place, 'cause

you c- it's like a box of chocolates,

66

: 00:03:53

you never know what you're gonna get.

67

: 00:03:54

James Adams: 100%, well said.

68

: 00:03:55

Anthony Perl: Tell me a little bit

about the identification process.

69

: 00:03:57

I mean, how do we actually work that out?

70

: 00:04:00

Who is going to fall into that

category of high potential?

71

: 00:04:05

And then obviously from there, what does

that actually mean once you identify them?

72

: 00:04:09

James Adams: Yeah, so the advantage of

using the term high potential rather

73

: 00:04:13

than gifted is a certain flexibility

in identifying students who need that

74

: 00:04:19

qualitatively different learning support.

75

: 00:04:22

So for example, students could

be demonstrating high potential

76

: 00:04:25

within a certain subject area

later in their schooling.

77

: 00:04:29

And so we always need to be

vigilant with identifying students

78

: 00:04:33

and using multiple metrics, both

qualitative and quantitative.

79

: 00:04:37

So this includes things like standardized

test scores, as well as school

80

: 00:04:42

assessments, and often that can create

very interesting insights by be- by

81

: 00:04:46

comparing school assessment data with

these standardized test scores and seeing

82

: 00:04:51

if there's any discrepancies there.

83

: 00:04:53

But it also includes qualitative

metrics such as samples of student

84

: 00:04:57

work and teacher recommendations.

85

: 00:05:00

And so you have to have this holistic

approach to student identification

86

: 00:05:04

to ensure that we are identifying the

right students at the right times.

87

: 00:05:08

Anthony Perl: And I imagine

there is some discrepancy

88

: 00:05:09

between what test results- Yeah

89

: 00:05:12

might give and what might happen

from seeing what's happening in

90

: 00:05:16

classroom and normal assignments

and things that you're doing.

91

: 00:05:18

Because some people operate better

under exam pressure than, than others,

92

: 00:05:23

so potential can go unnoticed if

you're only relying on test scores.

93

: 00:05:29

James Adams: Absolutely.

94

: 00:05:30

We don't want to think of high potential

as simply good test takers, and you

95

: 00:05:36

want to have that holistic perspective.

96

: 00:05:38

But also at the same time, when we

think about why are we focusing on these

97

: 00:05:43

students, where are we trying to get

them, the reality is that they do have to

98

: 00:05:47

sit exams at the end of year 12, whether

doing the IB or the HSC, and there is

99

: 00:05:52

that practical element of we do hopefully

want them to perform well and excel.

100

: 00:05:56

Anthony Perl: So talk to me a little

bit about the programs themselves.

101

: 00:05:59

So you've identified someone who's

in that high potential category.

102

: 00:06:03

What's the process like?

103

: 00:06:04

I mean, even before you get them into a

program, how do you approach the student?

104

: 00:06:08

How do you approach the family?

105

: 00:06:10

And then where are they going?

106

: 00:06:11

What are they doing different?

107

: 00:06:13

James Adams: So the really important

thing to think about is l- what are the

108

: 00:06:17

characteristics of a really effective

high potential program at a school

109

: 00:06:22

that's really doing wonderful work?

110

: 00:06:24

And the first thing I'd like to talk

about is features that often fall short

111

: 00:06:29

of what we would like to accomplish.

112

: 00:06:32

If you often talk a- to different schools

about what high potential or gifted

113

: 00:06:37

education programs they provide, they

often list several different sort of

114

: 00:06:43

external competitions such as The Da Vinci

Decathlon, the Tournament of Minds, the

115

: 00:06:48

Ethics Olympiad, and there's many, many

of these different external competitions

116

: 00:06:54

across the single calendar year.

117

: 00:06:56

And so that, in many ways, in

many schools, is their high

118

: 00:07:00

potential or gifted program.

119

: 00:07:03

In times like these, I often

think about a really wonderful

120

: 00:07:06

Latin phrase, which is multum non

multa, which means much, not many.

121

: 00:07:10

And I think this reliance that many

schools have on various external

122

: 00:07:15

competitions is often emblematic that

not enough is being done within schools,

123

: 00:07:21

and it often is very fragmentary

where, you know, competitions are

124

: 00:07:25

really fun, the students get an

adrenaline rush, the parents get

125

: 00:07:29

the photo opportunity, but it isn't

necessarily leading to deep learning.

126

: 00:07:34

And so really powerful, impactful,

high-potential programs actually often

127

: 00:07:40

are a single program that provides

these external competi- competitions

128

: 00:07:45

beneath them within a holistic program.

129

: 00:07:47

Anthony Perl: I suppose the next

thing is when you start getting into

130

: 00:07:50

that level of detail and you start

creating these programs, what does

131

: 00:07:56

day-to-day look like for a student?

132

: 00:07:58

How does it, how is it different

to what everyone else is doing?

133

: 00:08:03

James Adams: So it's important to

differentiate between things that

134

: 00:08:05

are done within the curriculum,

within the classroom, and then

135

: 00:08:09

also things that are done outside.

136

: 00:08:11

And my initial answer was more

focused on the things that we provided

137

: 00:08:16

outside the typical curriculum.

138

: 00:08:18

Within the curriculum, within the

classroom, we're looking for opportunities

139

: 00:08:23

to extend students both in terms of

depth, but also in terms of complexity.

140

: 00:08:29

And so we want those students to be

really challenged to think about really

141

: 00:08:33

challenging tasks that are more complex.

142

: 00:08:36

But also at the same time, we want

to really focus on that breadth

143

: 00:08:39

of understanding and talking about

exploring topics more deeply.

144

: 00:08:43

Anthony Perl: Talk to me a little

bit about the advantages of having

145

: 00:08:46

this kind of program and being

in an all-girls environment.

146

: 00:08:50

James Adams: Mm-hmm.

147

: 00:08:51

So the advantage of high-potential

programs like this at an all-girls school

148

: 00:08:55

is that it allows us to target unique

academic and social emotional areas

149

: 00:09:00

that are frequently barriers for girls

and young women in, in their schooling.

150

: 00:09:05

So, for example, female students,

particularly high-achieving students,

151

: 00:09:09

frequently experience unique challenges

such as imposter syndrome, perfectionism,

152

: 00:09:14

anxiety, underestimation of their ability,

and something which I also talk- call

153

: 00:09:20

limited academic imagined futures.

154

: 00:09:24

And finally, also a

hesitancy towards STEM.

155

: 00:09:27

So, with these programs, what we can do is

really target these particular challenges

156

: 00:09:34

that our girls face in, in a really safe

and small group learning environment

157

: 00:09:38

to really challenge them to excel.

158

: 00:09:40

Anthony Perl: So, you think it

makes a real difference that

159

: 00:09:41

it's an all girls environment?

160

: 00:09:43

Mm.

161

: 00:09:43

Particularly for after school when

they're going into a mixed environment- Mm

162

: 00:09:48

uh, particularly in the workforce.

163

: 00:09:50

James Adams: Absolutely.

164

: 00:09:50

So, not only do we wanna challenge them

to access really difficult concepts,

165

: 00:09:57

which they're learning either at

university or in the workplace, but

166

: 00:10:00

we actually also want to give them the

confidence of having a voice, occupying

167

: 00:10:04

space, and really being ambitious in

their discussions or in their careers.

168

: 00:10:10

Anthony Perl: Streaming is a

term that we hear quite often.

169

: 00:10:12

So, how does that play out, particularly

in this area of high potential learning?

170

: 00:10:17

James Adams: So, the importance

of streaming or flexible ability

171

: 00:10:20

grouping is that it gives staff the

ideal conditions to challenge high

172

: 00:10:25

potential students within the classroom.

173

: 00:10:28

And there's two broad mechanisms

that allow streaming or high flexible

174

: 00:10:32

ability grouping to be really effective.

175

: 00:10:35

The first is that it allows teachers

to be really targeted in their

176

: 00:10:39

instruction, and to really challenge

students at their point of need.

177

: 00:10:43

But secondly, there's also a motivational

or aspirational aspect to it, whereby

178

: 00:10:48

peers who are surrounded by like-minded

peers sort of have a culture of excellence

179

: 00:10:53

and motivation, I would also say even

competition, to push themselves further,

180

: 00:10:58

which is incredibly powerful as well.

181

: 00:11:01

Anthony Perl: Talk to me a little bit

then about differentiation and also

182

: 00:11:06

going into acceleration and enrichment.

183

: 00:11:08

These are terms that I think are used

quite often, but I'm not sure if people

184

: 00:11:13

really understand- What they actually

mean and, and also how that actually

185

: 00:11:18

impacts high-potential learning.

186

: 00:11:20

What, where it- where

do they fit into that?

187

: 00:11:22

Yeah.

188

: 00:11:22

James Adams: So I'll talk a

little bit about acceleration.

189

: 00:11:25

Acceleration can be an incredibly

powerful tool, and we- when we talk

190

: 00:11:29

about acceleration, we can mean either

whole year grade skipping, where

191

: 00:11:34

students often skip a grade, or we often

mean subject-specific acceleration,

192

: 00:11:40

where they maybe are accelerated and

skip a year of a particular subject.

193

: 00:11:45

The first thing I'd like to say is that

acceleration can be really powerful when

194

: 00:11:49

used precisely and appropriately, and it

can be particularly powerful in subjects

195

: 00:11:54

such as mathematics, where there's a

very clear distinction when a student

196

: 00:11:59

has a really superior understanding of

a topic and needs to be accelerated.

197

: 00:12:04

However, I would actually say that we can

become over-reliant on acceleration as a

198

: 00:12:11

tool of differentiation, particularly when

we talk about whole year grade skipping,

199

: 00:12:15

and that actually acceleration, especially

if we use it blindly, can actually

200

: 00:12:19

be a sign of failure to differentiate

for high-potential students within the

201

: 00:12:23

classroom, and therefore schools perhaps

feel the need to accelerate as their

202

: 00:12:28

only path to challenging these students.

203

: 00:12:31

Anthony Perl: So in terms of all of this,

I guess the question then comes back

204

: 00:12:35

and say, well, we've talked about these

students that are given this opportunity,

205

: 00:12:39

but what's the counter of that?

206

: 00:12:40

What are the challenges that it may be

faced with them being accelerated or,

207

: 00:12:46

you know, taking advantage of these

high-potential learning opportunities?

208

: 00:12:50

Does that exclude them socially?

209

: 00:12:52

Does that carry its own baggage?

210

: 00:12:54

James Adams: So with all

these programs, there's always

211

: 00:12:58

decisions that have to be made.

212

: 00:13:00

For example, we're often limited by space.

213

: 00:13:02

So for example, with flexible ability

grouping, we do have to create

214

: 00:13:07

classes, and therefore students

are put in one class or another.

215

: 00:13:11

However, if it's done appropriately and

equitably, there is actually a possibility

216

: 00:13:16

of achieving excellence through equity

and ensuring that each student is

217

: 00:13:21

receiving the appropriate challenge in

their classroom so that we n- meet the

218

: 00:13:25

needs of every single girl in our school.

219

: 00:13:27

Anthony Perl: So is there a

risk of underperforming if these

220

: 00:13:31

students aren't identified?

221

: 00:13:33

And what does that mean?

222

: 00:13:35

Have we seen that traditionally?

223

: 00:13:36

Because this is a newer idea really,

this high-performance learning.

224

: 00:13:41

James Adams: So research very recently

has identified that high-potential

225

: 00:13:46

students in Australia are frequently

underperforming, and as a school, we

226

: 00:13:51

really want to ensure that every girl

is being challenged at a point of need.

227

: 00:13:55

meaningfully.

228

: 00:13:56

And so it's really important that we

create these cultures of excellence,

229

: 00:14:00

of intrinsic motivation, that every

girl is really pushing themselves

230

: 00:14:06

to reach their full potential.

231

: 00:14:08

Anthony Perl: So I suppose what

you're talking about overall is

232

: 00:14:09

an environment for learning that

enriches each girl at their own level.

233

: 00:14:14

James Adams: Absolutely.

234

: 00:14:14

I think the term that I always like using

is imagined academic futures, this idea

235

: 00:14:20

that in the future there's, uh, incredible

things that I can become, that I can

236

: 00:14:25

achieve, and ensuring that girls at MLC

School believe that genuinely, and that

237

: 00:14:32

through hard work they can accomplish

great things, whether it's within school,

238

: 00:14:36

within university, within the workforce.

239

: 00:14:38

That's ultimately the

most important thing.

240

: 00:14:41

The really fancy term in the literature

is called academic self-efficacy, this

241

: 00:14:46

belief that through your own hard work you

can accomplish great things and improve.

242

: 00:14:53

That's the most important

thing within schools.

243

: 00:14:55

Absolutely.

244

: 00:14:56

Anthony Perl: So tell me a little bit

about this whole idea of creating an

245

: 00:15:02

environment that is going to have an

impact then in terms of the workforce.

246

: 00:15:07

How do we actually see that

playing out as a result of being

247

: 00:15:12

in this kind of environment?

248

: 00:15:14

James Adams: So unfortunately, there

are still systemic inequalities in both

249

: 00:15:18

post-secondary education and in the

workplace, and the most important thing is

250

: 00:15:24

creating rigorous academic opportunities

and programs where female students can

251

: 00:15:30

feel safe taking risk and dealing with

ambiguity and challenging themselves so

252

: 00:15:36

that they're prepared in universities,

in the workplace, to really take on

253

: 00:15:41

these uncertainties- With confidence

254

: 00:15:44

Anthony Perl: So talk to me a little bit

then about the challenges that teachers

255

: 00:15:49

face in being able to, uh, deliver for

this, because there's a lot that's put

256

: 00:15:55

in their, in their basket of things

that they have to do, particularly if

257

: 00:16:00

you're now saying, "Okay, we're not

just delivering on the curriculum,

258

: 00:16:03

we're also going to have to accommodate

at, at this end for high learners."

259

: 00:16:07

So what's, what's it

like for the teachers?

260

: 00:16:10

How do they actually accommodate this?

261

: 00:16:11

How much do- extra do they have to do to

be able to put them in a position to help?

262

: 00:16:16

James Adams: So the very first thing

to create conditions of success here

263

: 00:16:21

is to create the correct structural

conditions in a school to ensure that

264

: 00:16:26

teachers can effectively differentiate

for their high potential learners.

265

: 00:16:31

And that includes things such as

flexible ability grouping or streaming,

266

: 00:16:35

whereby students of similar ability

and similar potential are in the

267

: 00:16:40

same classroom so that teachers

can effectively differentiate for a

268

: 00:16:45

particular group of students rather

than trying to prepare multiple

269

: 00:16:49

lesson plans, multiple activities,

and try and meet students from diverse

270

: 00:16:55

abilities within a single classroom.

271

: 00:16:57

And so when you remove that barrier, it

actually enables teachers to really master

272

: 00:17:03

their craft and be much more impactful

to meet students where they're at.

273

: 00:17:08

Anthony Perl: I think just to kind

of wrap up some of this conversation,

274

: 00:17:11

from a parent's perspective, you know,

what is it that they should be doing?

275

: 00:17:16

How do they respond to either their,

their child is identified as being a high

276

: 00:17:22

potential learner, or I imagine there

are plenty of parents who are going, they

277

: 00:17:25

really want their child to be identified.

278

: 00:17:27

How come they haven't been?

279

: 00:17:28

How do parents respond?

280

: 00:17:30

What should that-- What's

some advice for them?

281

: 00:17:32

James Adams: So the most important

thing is recognizing that we need

282

: 00:17:36

to have a long-term perspective, and

that even though present learning

283

: 00:17:40

needs are- Obviously important factor.

284

: 00:17:43

We're naturally thinking about where

every girl will be at the end of

285

: 00:17:47

year 12, and so having that long-term

perspective is a really important

286

: 00:17:51

part of the development process in

achieving high potential in the future.

287

: 00:17:56

High potential isn't something that we

just possess in the present, it's actually

288

: 00:18:00

a process we achieve in the future.

289

: 00:18:02

And so having that long-term, big-picture

thinking is the most important thing

290

: 00:18:07

we can think about as a parent, as

students, and as teachers going forward.

291

: 00:18:13

Anthony Perl: And speaking of going

forward, I mean, how do you see this

292

: 00:18:16

whole idea of high-potential learning,

in a broader sense, playing out and

293

: 00:18:21

developing further in the coming years?

294

: 00:18:23

James Adams: High-potential learning

is a really interesting beast.

295

: 00:18:27

It's a really interesting

area to be involved in.

296

: 00:18:29

And the reason is because within New

South Wales in particular, there's an

297

: 00:18:33

increasing focus on it, both within

public schools, within selective

298

: 00:18:38

schools, within private schools.

299

: 00:18:40

And I think it's be- gonna be- only become

more and more important because often

300

: 00:18:45

when we talk about meeting the needs

of students, our tendency is to always

301

: 00:18:49

focus on students who need additional

support, which is incredibly important.

302

: 00:18:53

But also there's many, many, many students

who have qualitatively different needs at

303

: 00:18:59

the top end, and that we actually really

do need to be differentiating for them.

304

: 00:19:03

And so I think that, especially

given the intense amount of selective

305

: 00:19:07

schools in Australia, the intense

amount of really high-performing

306

: 00:19:11

public schools, we therefore really

need to differentiate our practice

307

: 00:19:15

for our top students in our classes.

308

: 00:19:17

Anthony Perl: And just to wrap things

up, the question that we like to ask

309

: 00:19:20

everyone who appears on the show is,

Dare to be More is the name of the

310

: 00:19:24

show, it's the motto of the school.

311

: 00:19:26

How does Dare to be More fit into the

equation for high-potential learning?

312

: 00:19:30

How do you see that correlation?

313

: 00:19:32

James Adams: High-potential learning is

all about really challenging students to

314

: 00:19:37

be all that they can be in the long term.

315

: 00:19:39

And that includes things such as

thinking about what they want to study

316

: 00:19:43

at university, what career path they

want, and recognizing that they can

317

: 00:19:47

accomplish all these great things

through hard work, through applying

318

: 00:19:51

themselves, and really having that

really big-picture, aspirational goals

319

: 00:19:57

in their learning and in their career

paths, and recognizing that they can

320

: 00:20:00

accomplish these things through hard work.

321

: 00:20:02

Anthony Perl: Fantastic.

322

: 00:20:03

What a great way to approach

that idea of Dare to be More.

323

: 00:20:07

I love it.

324

: 00:20:07

Thank you so much for being

a part of the program.

325

: 00:20:09

Really appreciate the insights, and I

think that anyone listening in today

326

: 00:20:13

will have got some incredible ideas

about how the identifying kids for

327

: 00:20:20

their high-potential learning and the

programs that are being done in the

328

: 00:20:23

school can really make a huge difference

to them, and it's something to embrace.

329

: 00:20:27

James Adams: It was

wonderful talking to you.

330

: 00:20:28

Thank you so much.

331

: 00:20:32

Anthony Perl: Thank you for

joining us on Dare to Be More.

332

: 00:20:34

If you enjoyed this episode, please

subscribe wherever you get your

333

: 00:20:37

podcasts so you never miss an episode.

334

: 00:20:40

Your likes and comments also

help more families discover

335

: 00:20:42

these valuable conversations.

336

: 00:20:45

For more information about MLC school

and their approach to girls' education,

337

: 00:20:49

visit their website at mlcsyd.nsw.edu.au.

338

: 00:20:54

Check out the show notes

for more information.

339

: 00:20:56

The Dare to Be More podcast is

produced by Podcast Done For You.

340

: 00:21:00

I'm your host, Anthony Pearl,

and we invite you to join us next

341

: 00:21:03

time as we continue to explore

what it means to dare to be more